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	<title>Comments on: Cover</title>
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	<description>Solving Christopher Manson&#039;s MAZE and the Genre of the Immersive Puzzle</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 10 Aug 2026 21:08:58 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mejs</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-22964</link>
		<dc:creator>Mejs</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2025 03:15:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[“Tempted? Test(...)” Tempest by William Shakespaer, similarly the fish, instead of the bull on the entrance, might be pointing at the character of Caliban.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“Tempted? Test(&#8230;)” Tempest by William Shakespaer, similarly the fish, instead of the bull on the entrance, might be pointing at the character of Caliban.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21192</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2021 05:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21192</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand that the summaries on the backs of books are often added by the publisher rather than being written by the author. I&#039;m not sure if that is the case here; the publisher would probably be overstepping boundaries to write it from the perspective of the guide, since that would corrupt Manson&#039;s characterization. However, I can&#039;t help but feel that there is something somewhat different about the guide&#039;s tone and diction here, but perhaps that just because the context in which he is speaking is different from the rest of the book.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand that the summaries on the backs of books are often added by the publisher rather than being written by the author. I&#8217;m not sure if that is the case here; the publisher would probably be overstepping boundaries to write it from the perspective of the guide, since that would corrupt Manson&#8217;s characterization. However, I can&#8217;t help but feel that there is something somewhat different about the guide&#8217;s tone and diction here, but perhaps that just because the context in which he is speaking is different from the rest of the book.</p>
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		<title>By: vewatkin</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21177</link>
		<dc:creator>vewatkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Feb 2021 15:36:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21177</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know I’ve been the king of “maybe we should think about this” lately, without offering any actual productive thought, but…

When we talk about the confirmed solutions in this book, we for some reason neglect to mention the solutions that are confirmed even more directly than the contest solutions: the ones listed on the back of the book.

Now, we have traditionally ignored these because we know they&#039;re wrong.  Finding the word &quot;story&quot; in the text in Room 1 does NOT mean that that&#039;s the right way.  The arrow in Room 20 does NOT point the right way.  So we know that stuff&#039;s wrong, and we&#039;ve ignored it.

But ignoring this stuff doesn&#039;t make sense with our current understanding of the book.  Red herrings are just as much &quot;real&quot; puzzles in the book as anything else.  Think of the same example I raised in a nearby comment--F HOUR TREE.  This is a real puzzle, as good an example as we&#039;ve found of one, and it&#039;s just a red herring.  That doesn&#039;t mean it shouldn&#039;t inform how we approach other puzzles in the book, or what kinds of things we should be looking for.

Similarly, it doesn&#039;t really matter that the &quot;solutions&quot; Manson gives us on the back cover are wrong--at least, it doesn&#039;t mean that we shouldn&#039;t be using that information.  It gives us insight into what Manson viewed as red herrings and how he used them.

Specifically, what we learn from the back cover is:

1) Mentioning a word associated with a door is meant to be a clue to take that door.
2) Something pointing at a door is, alone, a clue to take that door.

&quot;Well, no kidding,&quot; everyone says.

WELL, but just keep this in mind when looking to explain things in other rooms.  

ALSO, taking Manson&#039;s identified red herrings seriously should help to counter the worldview that every room points you toward the best door in it, either by indicating only that door or by indicating every door except that door.  The way that the above types of clues are used does not conform to that view--certainly off of the solution path, at least, but maybe not on the path either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I’ve been the king of “maybe we should think about this” lately, without offering any actual productive thought, but…</p>
<p>When we talk about the confirmed solutions in this book, we for some reason neglect to mention the solutions that are confirmed even more directly than the contest solutions: the ones listed on the back of the book.</p>
<p>Now, we have traditionally ignored these because we know they&#8217;re wrong.  Finding the word &#8220;story&#8221; in the text in Room 1 does NOT mean that that&#8217;s the right way.  The arrow in Room 20 does NOT point the right way.  So we know that stuff&#8217;s wrong, and we&#8217;ve ignored it.</p>
<p>But ignoring this stuff doesn&#8217;t make sense with our current understanding of the book.  Red herrings are just as much &#8220;real&#8221; puzzles in the book as anything else.  Think of the same example I raised in a nearby comment&#8211;F HOUR TREE.  This is a real puzzle, as good an example as we&#8217;ve found of one, and it&#8217;s just a red herring.  That doesn&#8217;t mean it shouldn&#8217;t inform how we approach other puzzles in the book, or what kinds of things we should be looking for.</p>
<p>Similarly, it doesn&#8217;t really matter that the &#8220;solutions&#8221; Manson gives us on the back cover are wrong&#8211;at least, it doesn&#8217;t mean that we shouldn&#8217;t be using that information.  It gives us insight into what Manson viewed as red herrings and how he used them.</p>
<p>Specifically, what we learn from the back cover is:</p>
<p>1) Mentioning a word associated with a door is meant to be a clue to take that door.<br />
2) Something pointing at a door is, alone, a clue to take that door.</p>
<p>&#8220;Well, no kidding,&#8221; everyone says.</p>
<p>WELL, but just keep this in mind when looking to explain things in other rooms.  </p>
<p>ALSO, taking Manson&#8217;s identified red herrings seriously should help to counter the worldview that every room points you toward the best door in it, either by indicating only that door or by indicating every door except that door.  The way that the above types of clues are used does not conform to that view&#8211;certainly off of the solution path, at least, but maybe not on the path either.</p>
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		<title>By: ritz</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21160</link>
		<dc:creator>ritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2021 08:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21160</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[did u just call me &quot;pink vewatkin&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>did u just call me &#8220;pink vewatkin&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ritz</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21104</link>
		<dc:creator>ritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jan 2021 12:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well said.
ABSTRACT MAZE RANT INCOMING:
To someone who just picked up the book, the rooms look hard, but in a way like: the puzzles would be tough, not the underlying logic of the puzzles. The actual struggle isn&#039;t just getting information but finding it AND knowing what to do with it.
Example: imagine there&#039;s a version of maze where the logic is extremely short and linear, Room 33 has its doors all labeled with a type of word relationship, &quot;rhyme,&quot; &quot;alliteration&quot; and &quot;antonym.&quot; There&#039;s a wagon and a picture of a flagon, and the connection between them is the end of the puzzle: you go through the &quot;rhyme&quot; door.
In Maze, when we figured out flagon rhymed with wagon, it gave us very little. It inspired more findings but as a clue in itself seems useless in the context of the unsolved puzzle. And yeah, it&#039;s because the puzzle is unsolved, but it&#039;s also because it probably needs to be unscrambled and connected and odd one out&#039;d to give any useful information. It might even just be a red herring, like Manson referenced a famous agon and put a bunch of rhyming words to throw readers off. That&#039;s just how puzzles in maze work. Manson thinks of an answer, then encodes it through various steps of logic and puzzlecraft and misleading info. The correct door is not the one under the rhyme. This probably isn&#039;t even meant to be misleading, just part of a larger whole, so it&#039;s not really an example, but what I mean to say is obfuscation and layers would make linear interpretations of maze rooms nonsense. Not treating Maze like a normal book is crucial to having any fun with it, because as a normal book the design is incomprehensible. I completely agree.

The guide on the other hand is harder to work out meta intentions with, because like... the warnings take the maze room expectations from HARD PUZZLE --&gt; ANSWER to HARD PUZZLE --&gt; HARD LOGIC --&gt; ANSWER. But the guide? It&#039;s hard to know if he was even written with derivable &quot;answers&quot; in mind. Suggesting to Manson to add the warning to both of them is something I would see early readers doing, but it&#039;s hard for him because if the guide really does just say purely unhelpful things, he can&#039;t tell readers to simply ignore him. And he doesn&#039;t just mislead! Sometimes the things he says genuinely help, like the silences are as eloquent as sounds line. I agree it&#039;s a big possibility it was added to make the readers start interpreting him abstractly earlier on, it&#039;s just hard for me to make concrete theories about he operates or is intended to. The puzzles I would say for sure need the warning. The guide needs it too, but it&#039;s just harder to come to a conclusion about what that says about him.

I really wish I knew more about how the book came to be and like, the creative process. Not the specific logic employed but the general techniques used to give the puzzles their mazey feel. That&#039;s probably what I would ask Manson if I ever met him- while writing, did you have to make them harder, or easier? Did you expect it to be as difficult as you did? When did you decide to add in overarching statements like the warnings and directions? What effects did you hope to achieve with different aspects of the book? There&#039;s so much we don&#039;t know]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said.<br />
ABSTRACT MAZE RANT INCOMING:<br />
To someone who just picked up the book, the rooms look hard, but in a way like: the puzzles would be tough, not the underlying logic of the puzzles. The actual struggle isn&#8217;t just getting information but finding it AND knowing what to do with it.<br />
Example: imagine there&#8217;s a version of maze where the logic is extremely short and linear, Room 33 has its doors all labeled with a type of word relationship, &#8220;rhyme,&#8221; &#8220;alliteration&#8221; and &#8220;antonym.&#8221; There&#8217;s a wagon and a picture of a flagon, and the connection between them is the end of the puzzle: you go through the &#8220;rhyme&#8221; door.<br />
In Maze, when we figured out flagon rhymed with wagon, it gave us very little. It inspired more findings but as a clue in itself seems useless in the context of the unsolved puzzle. And yeah, it&#8217;s because the puzzle is unsolved, but it&#8217;s also because it probably needs to be unscrambled and connected and odd one out&#8217;d to give any useful information. It might even just be a red herring, like Manson referenced a famous agon and put a bunch of rhyming words to throw readers off. That&#8217;s just how puzzles in maze work. Manson thinks of an answer, then encodes it through various steps of logic and puzzlecraft and misleading info. The correct door is not the one under the rhyme. This probably isn&#8217;t even meant to be misleading, just part of a larger whole, so it&#8217;s not really an example, but what I mean to say is obfuscation and layers would make linear interpretations of maze rooms nonsense. Not treating Maze like a normal book is crucial to having any fun with it, because as a normal book the design is incomprehensible. I completely agree.</p>
<p>The guide on the other hand is harder to work out meta intentions with, because like&#8230; the warnings take the maze room expectations from HARD PUZZLE &#8211;&gt; ANSWER to HARD PUZZLE &#8211;&gt; HARD LOGIC &#8211;&gt; ANSWER. But the guide? It&#8217;s hard to know if he was even written with derivable &#8220;answers&#8221; in mind. Suggesting to Manson to add the warning to both of them is something I would see early readers doing, but it&#8217;s hard for him because if the guide really does just say purely unhelpful things, he can&#8217;t tell readers to simply ignore him. And he doesn&#8217;t just mislead! Sometimes the things he says genuinely help, like the silences are as eloquent as sounds line. I agree it&#8217;s a big possibility it was added to make the readers start interpreting him abstractly earlier on, it&#8217;s just hard for me to make concrete theories about he operates or is intended to. The puzzles I would say for sure need the warning. The guide needs it too, but it&#8217;s just harder to come to a conclusion about what that says about him.</p>
<p>I really wish I knew more about how the book came to be and like, the creative process. Not the specific logic employed but the general techniques used to give the puzzles their mazey feel. That&#8217;s probably what I would ask Manson if I ever met him- while writing, did you have to make them harder, or easier? Did you expect it to be as difficult as you did? When did you decide to add in overarching statements like the warnings and directions? What effects did you hope to achieve with different aspects of the book? There&#8217;s so much we don&#8217;t know</p>
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		<title>By: vewatkin</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21093</link>
		<dc:creator>vewatkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Jan 2021 05:52:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21093</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Keep in mind, it&#039;s not just the Guide-- you also get a heads up that the clues (puzzles) might not lead you the right way.  This is only hinted at in the text past the Directions, but it&#039;s a fundamental aspect of the book, and one that otherwise could take a long time to discover.  It could also be quite frustrating; imagine not knowing the puzzles are untrustworthy because there was no warning, actually SOLVING some of them--I mean, absent a warning, wouldn&#039;t you think F HOUR TREE = THREE FOUR just had to be the right answer?  Wouldn&#039;t you be pissed to learn it wasn&#039;t, that solving the puzzle just wasted your time?

That&#039;s what makes me hypothesize that early feedback requested a stronger hint that nothing can be trusted.  We take that for granted, but if you don&#039;t, it seems downright infuriating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep in mind, it&#8217;s not just the Guide&#8211; you also get a heads up that the clues (puzzles) might not lead you the right way.  This is only hinted at in the text past the Directions, but it&#8217;s a fundamental aspect of the book, and one that otherwise could take a long time to discover.  It could also be quite frustrating; imagine not knowing the puzzles are untrustworthy because there was no warning, actually SOLVING some of them&#8211;I mean, absent a warning, wouldn&#8217;t you think F HOUR TREE = THREE FOUR just had to be the right answer?  Wouldn&#8217;t you be pissed to learn it wasn&#8217;t, that solving the puzzle just wasted your time?</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what makes me hypothesize that early feedback requested a stronger hint that nothing can be trusted.  We take that for granted, but if you don&#8217;t, it seems downright infuriating.</p>
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		<title>By: ritz</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21089</link>
		<dc:creator>ritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21089</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No matter how you slice it there isn&#039;t one narrative lens we can apply to the guide that makes him make sense. So for his purpose, he&#039;s written extremely well]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No matter how you slice it there isn&#8217;t one narrative lens we can apply to the guide that makes him make sense. So for his purpose, he&#8217;s written extremely well</p>
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		<title>By: ritz</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21088</link>
		<dc:creator>ritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21088</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok so I now realize what I wrote basically was just &quot;hmmm maybe but also hmm maybe not&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok so I now realize what I wrote basically was just &#8220;hmmm maybe but also hmm maybe not&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: ritz</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21087</link>
		<dc:creator>ritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2021 16:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmmm... this is so core to how the book operates I&#039;ll have to think about it more. But honestly, telling the reader the guide will be untrustworthy is kind of meta-manipulation in its own way. So much of the time the guide is actually validating the visitors, so expecting lies from him makes the reader do 4D chess in their brain.
It&#039;s hard, I guess... much of the guide&#039;s presence in the book from a decision making standpoint is confusing or almost nonsensical, even when you know what all the right answers are. Which is probably the point. So telling the reader that might give them added reason to overanalyze everything he says, confusing them even more. It might be a way to make the visitors make believable decisions, keep the guide&#039;s influence subtle, and still inspire the reader to make strange ones to go against the guide. Take 2, 9, 11 and 35. The way the visitor text and guide text work together make a disorienting reverse-psychology experience.

The guide doesn&#039;t act predictably either, so things that make him seem distrustful vary wildly from each room.
I guess the guide is just so hard to interpret that interpreting how we interpret him is also hard. Getting a warning certainly does make the book feel malicious, though most readers probably wouldn&#039;t have trouble figuring out that malice anyway. Malice =/= misleading? Maybe the guide isn&#039;t even that misleading and the part was added in the directions and back cover to ADD difficulty? It&#039;s so hard to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8230; this is so core to how the book operates I&#8217;ll have to think about it more. But honestly, telling the reader the guide will be untrustworthy is kind of meta-manipulation in its own way. So much of the time the guide is actually validating the visitors, so expecting lies from him makes the reader do 4D chess in their brain.<br />
It&#8217;s hard, I guess&#8230; much of the guide&#8217;s presence in the book from a decision making standpoint is confusing or almost nonsensical, even when you know what all the right answers are. Which is probably the point. So telling the reader that might give them added reason to overanalyze everything he says, confusing them even more. It might be a way to make the visitors make believable decisions, keep the guide&#8217;s influence subtle, and still inspire the reader to make strange ones to go against the guide. Take 2, 9, 11 and 35. The way the visitor text and guide text work together make a disorienting reverse-psychology experience.</p>
<p>The guide doesn&#8217;t act predictably either, so things that make him seem distrustful vary wildly from each room.<br />
I guess the guide is just so hard to interpret that interpreting how we interpret him is also hard. Getting a warning certainly does make the book feel malicious, though most readers probably wouldn&#8217;t have trouble figuring out that malice anyway. Malice =/= misleading? Maybe the guide isn&#8217;t even that misleading and the part was added in the directions and back cover to ADD difficulty? It&#8217;s so hard to say.</p>
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		<title>By: vewatkin</title>
		<link>http://www.intotheabyss.net/cover/comment-page-2/#comment-21086</link>
		<dc:creator>vewatkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jan 2021 01:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.intotheabyss.net/?page_id=222#comment-21086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I know I&#039;ve been the king of &quot;maybe we should think about this&quot; lately, without offering any actual productive thought, but...

Maybe we should think about this.  The parts of the book that give the most explicit warning that clues might be untrustworthy are the back cover and the directions--both of which were likely among the last bits of text written.  I wonder--did Manson always intend to make it so clear that the Guide was untrustworthy, or was this a late concession based on feedback?  It really flavors the book differently, right from the outset, to have these clear warnings, and not have to derive from experience just *how* untrustworthy the Guide and the clues are.

And that makes wonder whether any parts of the book work differently, were intended to work differently, for a reader that wasn&#039;t immediately handed those warnings.  Maybe something that seems to do nothing more than hint at the Guide&#039;s evil nature *really does* do nothing more, because it was created before the decision to give the reader a free heads up.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I&#8217;ve been the king of &#8220;maybe we should think about this&#8221; lately, without offering any actual productive thought, but&#8230;</p>
<p>Maybe we should think about this.  The parts of the book that give the most explicit warning that clues might be untrustworthy are the back cover and the directions&#8211;both of which were likely among the last bits of text written.  I wonder&#8211;did Manson always intend to make it so clear that the Guide was untrustworthy, or was this a late concession based on feedback?  It really flavors the book differently, right from the outset, to have these clear warnings, and not have to derive from experience just *how* untrustworthy the Guide and the clues are.</p>
<p>And that makes wonder whether any parts of the book work differently, were intended to work differently, for a reader that wasn&#8217;t immediately handed those warnings.  Maybe something that seems to do nothing more than hint at the Guide&#8217;s evil nature *really does* do nothing more, because it was created before the decision to give the reader a free heads up.</p>
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