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…room number 15. Just as we entered I heard a thump and the sound of footsteps hurrying away. Somewhere a door slammed.
“At least three of us can sit down here,” said one.
There were only three possible choices.
Leaning on the sacrificial tripod I was suddenly moved to say, “Perhaps these numbers relate to each other in some specific combination…” Immediately I regretted this act of charity…sometimes I think, after all these years, that I don’t really know myself.
One of them thought he had worked it out and, very pleased with himself, led us into…
- Images and text copyright 1985 by Christopher Manson
used with permission. [Purchase MAZE from Amazon]
Room Type: PATH Doors: 3 4 30 37
Solution Summary: [COLLECTION CURATED BY WHITE Raven. SEE COMMENTS FOR ADDITIONAL SOLUTION PROPOSALS.]
● The correct door is 37. [Credit: Unknown - during the 1985 contest.]
● The part of the Riddle of the Path in this room is the hidden letter is “H” represented by the Heart, Hats, House, Hare, and Heroes. [Credit: Unknown - prior to 1990.] The arrangement of the beams on the ceiling suggest the repeating letter “H”. [Credit: 515]
● In the names of the heroes is the word SEVEN spelled from bottom up. The letters are lined up but some are partially or completely off the page. At the end of the SEVEN is three nails together they suggest 37, the correct door. [Credit: SP]
● The SVN is SeVeN with the vowels removed. By removing the vowels it is three letters. 3&7=37 [Independent Credit: SP | White Raven]
● The SVN is SeVeN with the vowels removed it is on Door 30. 30+7=37 [Independent Credit: Hello Gregor | White Raven]
● In the text a visitor says, “Three of us can sit down here” an odd statement since there are no available seats except the one taken by the bunny. This phrase directs our attention to the floor. There are three legs on the tripod and four on the chair, seven total. 3&7=37 [Credit: SP]
● The sign with the bird, cloud, moon, bolt indicates “things in the sky.” The star in the leg bracing of the tripod reinforces this, and possibly the smoke clouds coming from the house in the child’s drawing. The list of heroes uses a V instead of a U in the Roman/Greek tradition. The focus of these clues is the SVN sign encouraging us to take it (in this instance) as “sun.” The sunlight in the room shines on the 3 of 30 and the 7 of 37 3&7=37. The partially sunlit 3 is excluded by not being fully lit. [Independent Credit: vewatkins | White Raven]
● The text spells out the numbers “three” “one” and “three” which add up to 7. “At least THREE of us can sit down here,” said ONE. There were only THREE possible choices.” [Independent Credit: vewatkins | White Raven] The next sentence reads, “Leaning on the sacrificial TRIPOD I was suddenly moved to say,…” Taking the tripod as another 3, by leaning the tripod the Guide completes the 37 prompting the Guide to drop the hint, “Perhaps these numbers relate to each other in some specific combination…” [Credit: White Raven]
Not a clue, but a tidbit: a sacrificial tripod is famously identified with the Oracle at Delphi, who would sit on the tripod while pronouncing prophecies. It may be for this reason (the tripod’s truth-spouting magic juju) that the Guide is moved to speak the truth while leaning on the tripod.
For hat fans: Perhaps the hat’s placement on the tripod similarly signals the honesty of hats in this room! Thus the hat on the right side of the chair, pointing to Room 37, can be trusted.
What, is that solution too stupid for you? Go look at the easel in Room 19 then, jerkface.
The tripod thing isn’t as stupid as it seems, there is a supporting riddle which redeems it…mostly.
Hat honesty? The scary thing is I can kind of see that…
I like this one! 6/5!
Oh, man, the Oracle of Delphi stuff is legit!
“…sometimes I think after all these years that I don’t really know myself.”
“Know thyself” was a famous Delphic maxim. This isn’t some obscure bit of trivia I dug up online; this is actually a well-known saying that I somehow forgot was associated with Delphi until just now.
I didn’t think the tripod-Delphi thing was stupid, just that it was an interesting mythology reference that didn’t advance a solution. It’s pretty certain now that’s an intended reference.
The hat thing is kind of stupid, but I have a pretty low threshold for calling solutions stupid.
Oh, and of course, the Oracle of Delphi is associated with Apollo, who was the god of the sun (in later traditions). That provides another basis for connecting this sacrificial tripod with the sun/SVN/SEVEN, giving us the same 3/7 connection we’ve leaned on like twelve times today..
Well, we have those images on the posterboard pointing our attention toward objects in the sky–though, notice, these objects have all been shaded out. Is this, perhaps, our indication to look to the shadows created from the ceiling? Is that our indication to look to the 3 — 7 partial solution mentioned previously?
Alternately, the sign invited us to group sky imagery, and we have two other such symbols in the room: the tripod’s star, and the SVN (sun) paper. If we connect those two, taking the tripod as 3 and the SVN as 7–well, there we go, eh?
Correct! Bumping it up one!
Full combined solution above…
One point to go.
Yep that works.
V-Watt sez, “Sacrifice your hat. Propose your bare head to the elements. Allow rain, bird feces, and lightning to drop and to strike. That is what these things do.
Let your scalp grow red from the sun.”
Wow, that was some kick to the head!
“There are also 7 legs touching the ground (3 on the tripod, 4 on the chair). Maybe this is in reference to the sitting down (i.e. pay attention to the floor). And 3 places to sit. 3+7″
I buy that! I have been puzzling over that odd phrasing and it ties together nicely. Putting it on the board! Way to go SP!
More to this: three of the rabbit’s feet/legs are visible, resting on the chair. Those three can sit down here. The other seven legs rest on the floor.
Yeah that makes a nice 3,7 set. And that the bit about sitting helps. Still goin with a red herring Trinity here, however, with a weak 3rd leg.
Ok I don’t need math for WRs version of the “seven” in the heroes. That one is clearly there because of the line of the page. I’m still curious about SPs original suggestion of picking a letter from each word. Ill crunch numbers at some point.
Congratulations SP, you are on a roll!
SP wrote, “SVN is 3 letters and possibly means SEVEN.”
Putting in on the board!
Word to the wise, SVN is a rare triple used clue, one big one left.
2. 1 Big one
What’s the third use of SVN? Has it been mentioned?
Opps, I wrote amiss, it is a quadrupedal used clue, two left.
I’m still only counting one that you have confirmed.
Greg can’t find where you confirmed any other SVN solutions. Can someone help Greg please? Greg is lost.
Greg is lost because WR is bad at math…and memory…and not sure which room he is in.
SVN is a rare triple used clue, two are left.
There I wrote it correctly, hallelujah!
And it’s not the 30+SVN thing… There’s a moon and a SUN here, but the SUN is on the wrong door. Someone work with that, maybe?
On April 26th you wrote, “SVN=Seven 30+7=37″ and I missed it.
It’s hard to keep up with the comments…
The only other thing I can think of is that the V in SVN counts as a roman numeral 5, but in what context I don’t know. There is a 5 pointed star disguised in the tripod.
Could go either way about the lining up of the SEVEN, check out the Related Images.
Sp, I spoke too hastily. We can look up letter frequency. So ill try actual calculation tonight and see what falls out. Let’s say before hand that if we can be 95% confident he did it on purpose we should assume it is intentional.
Letter frequency in lists of five Greek heroes’ names?
Keep in mind, whether not he intended the SEVEN to be spelled, he definitely intended the Vs to be there, as Roman-style Us, so he went to Greco-Roman mythology, which is going to net you a lot of Ss…I don’t think letter frequency calculations are really going to encapsulate the problem.
Letter frequency will get us close. Yes the U/V thing is a twist. Let’s see what happens.
Oh. I see what you might mean. No I mean frequency of letters in English words in general. One step is finding out how likely it is that 5 random words with letters freely selected from each could spell seven. But WRs version renders this moot because the letters line up.
V-Watt sez, “Here’s another take on the number occluding shadow solution. The two digits covered in shadow are 30′s 0 and 37′s 3. Mush them together and you get 37. Sorry that took me so long, my kid just kicked me in the face. Embrace life!”
Maybe he has eureka moments after he gets kicked in the head!
vewatkin & Hello Gregor,
This is not incorrect, it is incomplete.
The severe head trauma has even erased all memory of my making that statement!
Also, didn’t we say this long ago?
There are 7 shadows on the ceiling and 3 cross bars. Is that it?
There is another seemingly unrelated riddle which gives this riddle meaning.
I would say it’s “incomplete”, as White Raven said, because it doesn’t mention the fact that the “3″ marking door 3 is also shadowed. Right? So out of “30″, “37″, “3″, we have shadows over three digits, leaving just a 3 and a 7. Is that not enough?
No, I guess not, what with the other riddle and all.
Oh, I see that’s been discussed below. No, I think that’s a legitimate enough cross-out, it’s not so worrisome that the shadow doesn’t go cleanly through the 3.
“Perhaps these numbers relate to each other in some specific combination…”
While this strengthens the 3+(4)+30=37 theory, it also works if you consider that he’s talking about the five digits 3, 0, 3, 7, and 3 rather than the numbers 30, 37, and 3 (and 4). The “specific combination” of digits is the 3 and the 7 that aren’t in shadow vs. the 0, 3, and 3 that are.
General note there seem to be 2 of a number of Trinities here. But going home before I get hooked on another room.
I think Hare + hat might = head. Any takers?
Certainly better than the other, yes. Best attempt to seriously count gives 7.
When commenting on something it is helpful to use “Reply” (always right under the lead comment), I do not know what you are referring to here.
Don’t think this was mentioned yet: There are 7 things in here starting with H (hare, hat, hat, heroes, heart, house, helmet).
Seven is spelled in the heroes backwards. And then 3 tacks holding up that poster. There are also 7 S’s in this room shaped like thunderbolts.
ulysseS achillEs theseVs hErcules jasoN
is that solid???
There are tons of threes, I’m sure the 3 tacks is purposeful. My feeling with the heros is there is probably too much freedom to spell lots of things that way. Doesn’t hurt, but yeah I guess not solid would be my vote. Also counting the Hs depends on how you count. Maybe just “hats” or looking for more we could have ‘heavens” or “hope” (implied), “hardwood doors” etc… yes I no some are more stretchy. Someone once claimed “hearth” which I don’t buy. Implied “Holy Spirit” of the Trinity maybe. So I would not hang my hat on that one either. He could easily have put those things in there, but there is no way for us to know he did, I don’t think, so if he did then they are just little extras. Kinda like “Too many” for room 26. Probably accidental, but can’t be sure. IMO. Your milage may vary.
The one letter from each name is a bit dodgy, I admit. But the 7 S’s and 7 H-items seems pretty sound.
Regarding the SEVEN in the names of the heroes:
I went through and picked out the letters in the names that spell SEVEN, and in the order you listed them they appear as -
So the important letters to be in the right place are V and especially N. The words could spell SEVEN forward or backwards, therefore JASON has to be either first or last (the odds of the JASON being first or last is 2/7), a V word has to be in the middle. The resulting combinations are:
–VVN – “seven”
-VV-N – “seven”
V-V-N – “seven”
VV–N – no “seven”
V–VN – no “seven”
-V-VN – no “seven”
Thus the odds of these five names spelling SEVEN is just 14%. This is convincing by itself but to this add the fact that if you choose one letter different in the name HERCVLES all the letters are either last or almost last and that the letters are all on the far right mostly hidden off of the page, all lined up in a row, and at the end of the row are the three nails.
jaso N – partially hidden
hercul E s – hidden
these V s – partially hidden
achill E s – visible
ulysse S – visible
That is solid! Congratulations SP! Putting it on the solution summary!
I’m not sure I buy the complexity of your explanation, picking one letter from each hero to spell ‘seven’ seems adequate and a lot simpler and cleaner.
Regarding the 7 Ss: Could be right, especially because if all the words were visible we would have 9 Ss. On the other hand one S is half off of the page. If Manson wanted us to count the Ss I suspect he would have all of them clearly visible. Also it does not seem to be specifically matched with a three. Not sure…
Regarding the 7 Hs: YES!
Obviously this reinforces the 37 in the heroes list by matching with the three nails, there are two others like this.
You could argue that there are 3 V’s on the hero list as well (yeah yeah I know one of them is partially visible only!).
Also, the SVN is 3 letters and possibly means SEVEN.
There are also 7 legs touching the ground (3 on the tripod, 4 on the chair). Maybe this is in reference to the sitting down (i.e. pay attention to the floor). And 3 places to sit. 3+7
V-Watt’s Electric Labyrinth Love Luau notices that of the three rooms with a huge first letter fixation (2, 15, and 20), this is the only room where the room number doesn’t correspond with the obsessed upon letter alphanumerically.
The odd-one in principle can be used as support that H is part of that riddle business whereas B and T are not.
Hello Gregor and The Electric Labyrinth Love Luau,
You may be on to something here, if so it confirms the Room 2 Bs as red herrings and not related to the riddle. I’ll get back to you…
The “B”s in 2 can’t be a good red herring, becasue they give you a very straight forward good door indicator. Just follow the (B)room rather than the (A)rrow head or (C)rescent. There is a more complete and involved soulution, yes, but it is still a good simple correct door indicator.
For 15 : I still think the clearest numeric solution is add 4+3+30=37 where 4 is the door we can’t use. The shadows blocking out numbers on the far wall and only leaving 37 works fine for me too, but that’s not relating hte door numbers per se.
As I noted before, I like this solution, especially since our passage through 4 on the True Path means that we can make this deduction (that the unmarked door connects to 4) without bringing outside knowledge to bear.
I’m not sure this was intentional, and problematic for me is that the Guide says “these numbers,” not “these doors” or something like that. The number 4 isn’t there. I’m not suggesting that level of crypticism is impossible for Maze, but I think that if he wanted us to deduce the number associated with an unmarked door, that line would have been phrased differently.
It’s important to remember if the text isn’t specific, you gotta be careful what you infer. So, in the case of “these numbers”, we assume it’s referring to door numbers. That’s not necessarily the case.
Hence, Vance Wattling’s suggestion using 15 with the door numbers is still supported by the text, as is anything else that uses numbers in some combination.
Well, and since he’s leaning on the tripod that contains the five-point star, it may well be that he’s talking about 3 and 5 as well.
It gets us to the room that we’re in.
“There were only three possible choices.”
V-Watt’s Electric Labyrinth Love Luau supposes that this can be read to mean there are only three doors to choose from. Since that’s not particularly unusual and the use of “only” implies it is unusual, another reading may be preferable.
Another way to read the statement is to mean the only possible choices have the number three.
If you want to go off on that, if we eliminate the threes in common, we get 0, 7, and 0. Seven, again, is the odd one out.
V-Watt’s Electric Labyrinth Love states clearly:
3 is a factor is 15, 15 of 30; 37, the prime, is the odd dog out; but I’m not sure that’s a fair route to take based on a mention of a combining the numbers in the text.
Maybe the simpler way to state this idea is that while leaning on the TRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIpod the narrator, in a rare lapse in jerkfaceness, gives the group a real clue, which is that the numbers relate to each other in some specific combination. Then you have all those numbers being products of 3, except for 37, including “15″ which isn’t a door choice but is mentioned in the narrative. (Which, we’ve established elsewhere, is relatively rare.)
Sacrificial tripods are associated with Apollo and Delphi, did we already mention that in here somewhere?
V-Watt’s Electric Labyrinth Love Luau notices the following:
“LEANING on the sacrificial tripod…”
What is leaning on the sacrificial tripod is a hat. It leans towards 4 which is where we came from. It’s matching hat, tilting towards 37, leans to where we need to go next.
Sacrifice combines with Charity.
Weird how those shadows from the ceiling cross out the 0 on the door to 30 and the 3 on the door to 37. Sort of leaves you with 3/7, but that’s pretty redundant when one door already said 37 in the first place.
Another one I like. :)
Probably not accidental, huh?
What do you make of the near-miss cross-out of the rightmost 3?
I don’t know about the third 3. It is touched by the shadow, but only barely.
V-Watt’s Labyrinth Love Luau notes that the shadow can be thought to cross off numbers. The 0 off 30 makes it 3. The 3 off 37 makes it 7. The nothing off 3 makes it 3. So we have two 3s and a 7. 7 is the odd one out, so we go to 37.
Oh, I don’t think it has been mentioned, but the hare in this room is presumably the one that the the tortoise beats to the finish line in Room 20.
The hat on the heart chair (love seat?) is the same hat depicted in room 45.
Interesting about that “SVN”: it’s, in a sense, 37 with three 3s taken out.
First, the initial 3 itself.
Then, the two Es from SEVEN. (We haven’t learned much from room 3, but we do know that an upside-down E is a 3.)
Id say a Bingo there.
The first clue to 37 is that the guide clues us that the other room choices add up to it. (4)+3+30=37.
But there is often a reinforcing clue, and that may be it. Maybe it need to be cleaned up slightly, but I bet it is there.
Oh, that’s solid! And because the true path takes us through Room 4, we know that’s where the unmarked door leads.
There are 3 threes in the room of course, so we have enough of them. I’d say – take the 3 from 37 and the 3 by itself and put them in the SVN then that door reads “30 SEVEN”.
Trouble is, the V is a U as established by the Hero names on the right. The word is SUN, which is odd because it’d be a pretty clean solution to the room puzzle otherwise.
I think it is both a “v” and a ‘u” it is meant to be taken both ways , Ithink.
Just an observation: The tripod has a pentagram shape hidden in it, perhaps a reference to “star” or the number 5 .
Also, the paper could say SVN (seven) not SUN. (3 + 7 = 37)
I thought of the same thing about the star maybe equaling 5. But since 5 doesn’t seem to mean anything I have been thinking about it as a word instead. The ring around the outside makes it look like a “pentagram” but since it is not a smooth circle and it is upside right the word (if there is one) is probably “star.” Not sure what to do with that either.
The star is so pronouced it must be intentional.
The text refers to it as a “sacrificial tripod”. As such, I think pentagram is probably more appropriate.
Room 15 Solution: Partial.
Fourteenth room of the path – The hidden letter is “H.” Represented by the Heart, Hats, House, Hare, and Heroes.
The correct door is 37. We don’t know why.
Unsolved: On the left is a picture with icons of stuff in the sky. On door 30 is the word “sun.” The tripod is mentioned in the text and the number three is obviously important. How these clues point to room 37 is unknown.
What interests me most about this room right now is the bird/cloud/moon/bolt thing. It’s my current thought that it refers to other rooms.
Crescent moons occur in 2,3,23,34
Birds are in 21, 7, 32, 39, and 44
Bolts are in 23 and 20- also implied by impending severe weather (the weather changes are a whole other thing to look into).
Clouds are in 31 and 23.
It could also be a bit of word play.