For saying something.
This and that.
- Image copyright 1985 by Christopher Manson
into the abyss . net
Solving Christopher Manson's MAZE and the Genre of the Immersive Puzzle
For saying something.
This and that.
- Image copyright 1985 by Christopher Manson
Now I’m going to ramble a bit about deduction and induction. (One of my things – inductive theory). Deduction we are familiar with from HS geometry, computer programing and simple logic. Example: Socrates is a man. All men are mortal. Therefore Socretes is mortal. Q.E.D. Induction works like this then: All men are mortal. Socretes is mortal. Therefore…well no absolute conclution. However, what we know is that it is now more likely that Socretes is a man than it was before. Socretes can not be a rock. So out of the possible set of things Socretes could be we have eliminated a large amount of them. If use are using Bayesian or subjective probability you can say that it is now more probable that Socretes is a man than it was before you got the information that he is mortal. Multiple lines of evidence or repeated evidence reinforce inductive conclutions like this. And primarily this is how natural science really works, it is not deductive like mathematics, although math plays a huge role in science. So science never really proves anything, it just builds the best possible models of nature it can. The connection to Maze is that these are all inductive puzzles. There is no solution in MAZE I know of that can be found by pure deduction. It is an exercise in practical induction pushed to its limits.
The shortest path has been found deductively.
Still, those of us who have been trying to prove Maze’s solutions using nothing more than Euclid’s postulates may have something to learn here, and there’s a chatroom full of angry twelve-year-old atheists who are intrigued.
I think you are right about the shortest path.. it can be found deductively and we all did. So my bad there. It’s the only reason anyone ever got a foothold at all probably. Yeah once you enter all the room connections the right computer program could find it in an instant.
I’m missing something. Why would Atheists be angry? Because I said science is not proof? It’s not. It is however incredibly reliable in for example physics. And we have no better options.
They’re angry for unrelated reasons, but they love that stuff.
For fun. Someone suggested I try creating puzzles. Here is one in the style on my room level solutions. Hint: movie title.
Domestic cat
Kitten
——
Chair
Whip
——
——
2 domestic cats
Orange and black stripped pillow
Shark
——-
——–
Atlas
Man in swim suit in cold
——–
——–
——–
Canary bird
Sun
——-
Man dismounting horse
——-
Dark red crayon
Mason trowel
Abyssians,
Stepping out for few days. Be back soon.
White Raven
WR, could you in Sun me from all email from here. I don’t need it and it is making a lot of inbox clutter. Thanks.
Consider it done!
If anyone else wants to be removed from the contact list of any page, just let me know.
Abyssians,
I updated the whole MAZE solution summary. Of the 220 puzzle points for 44 rooms (Room 24 excluded) 111 have been allotted. So vewatkin was correct you are over half way…by one puzzle point.
Keep in mind that the solution meter does not include identifying red herrings, anything guide related, or anything I haven’t discovered. As you have all learned, I know a lot, as you have also learned, I am regularly surprised. The red herrings and guide stuff is measurable but I can’t gauge what I don’t know. Taking a guess I would suspect Abyssians are at about the one third mark.
Vewatkin is also right that some of the remaining riddles are more difficult than what has been solved thus far. Several of you, however, have just figured out the correct interpretative perspective. At the rate you are all solving riddles MAZE could be mostly solved in less than a year. We’ll see…
White Raven
Rooms that are described with their room number where you enter = 13,15,23,30 the last three IMO involve some adding and subtracting to get the exit. 13? Not as clearly, but maybe there is a missed “addition” solution here.
We can do the math when the Solution Summary is updated, but I think we’ve crossed the halfway mark in terms of puzzle points.
Don’t get too excited, though. A lot, maybe most of those points were for long-known solutions, and you have to figure the low-hanging fruit is getting picked first, so we still have a lot of ground to cover.
Podcastians,
I think the tortoise and hare thing IS correct, I was looking for it in Room 20 not Room 15. Doh! So hey, you sort of got a puzzle point out of this!
The map I made as a child was mostly accurate but was an incomprehensible mess. When I went back to it as an adult I decided to spend a month trying to solve the rooms without coming up with a decent map…it was not very successful. I solved at least one riddle pointing to the right door (in every case the easiest or only riddle) in rooms 44, 36, 34, 18, 16, 14, & 9. Not enough to travel anywhere. Maybe, with enough time (years and years), a person could solve most of them without the map…but not me. I agree, backwards as it is, mapping comes before solving.
Regarding the omega symbol, see related images for Room 20.
Ordered Dixit.
Really enjoyed the podcast, you guys are a hoot!
Guy Fawkes
The 2nd MAZE podcast featuring the puzzle stylings of Vincent (vewatkin), Alex (SP), Greg (Hello Gregor) and Ben (?) can be found at:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPcj32qd7U
Abyssians,
Based on a plugin suggestion from sp I have changed the font to maryweather. Sp suggested the font because of its similarity to the font of the MAZE. Let me know if you like it and also let me know if you see a conflict somewhere.
Thanks sp!
White Raven
Looks much better!
I think so too, and you were right about the similarity to MAZE – heck just look at the word MAZE. It is also more readable, especially on a cell phone. Thank you!
Abyssians,
By popular request, actually it was David Gentile’s suggestion, the comments now have “likes.” Let me know if you don’t like it. It’s easy to remove. And yes, that little hand is from MAZE – I’m freaky about visual consistency.
White Raven
A little comment about “Christopher”s. They are not there intentionally placed, except the middle of one. They are gone from my page except a few, where I think they are fun, and a noted as not “real”. But I never did think they were something placed there to be found as part of the puzzle, and that was not clearly stated enough on my 2012 page. Rather, I though Manson came up with one puzzle per room (now I see there are many in part due to Raven’s proding) and then to make it harder, Manson wanted to place a few random things. The hypothesis was that he used anagrams of his name and a specific method like a random object generator. It was never something that could be confirmed by the text, which is in part why I wrote Manson in the first place, to ask “Did you do this?” No, he didn’t. But I was just too tired to go pull everything out and start again, so I just left it and did other things. Important parts of puzzles are both indicated and confirmed, I’ve noted. Unimportant bits might be unconfirmed, and be intentional, but if you need it, there are two ways to get it always it seems, so you have confirmation.
WR,
Yeah – I just went through the first 10 rooms as a sample. Valuable door indicators of mine that I had in 2012 are not listed in 6 of 10 rooms. The cat spelling “Po” for example by running from 16 to 15 and indicating correct door. The “roots” in 5. Strikes and room tipped twice were partial solutions to room 8 in 2012, etc…
There were very wrong solutions too. My room 7 exit indicator was garbage.
But the assertion that the ONLY right answer I had in 2012 was room 26 is “quite irritating” let’s say. But then again – we can only keep count for ourselves.
Still looking forward to guide book. Hey , a though based on subjects mentioned in pod cast which I have not looked at yet – has anyone read “ready player one” Any Maze lover should enjoy it.
Regarding the change Manson made for publishing. Maybe he will say one day. I wonder if it has anything to do with 45 being the “center” of the Maze. It isn’t. Room 4 is and room 11 hints that.
Abyssians,
The first MAZE related podcast, hosted by vewatkins, SP, and Hello Gregor can be found at this address:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH1M659VXzw
It is one hour of wonderful MAZE geeking.
White Raven
Podcast Abyssians –
I LOVED your podcast! How cool to put a face to the names!
A few responses to your queries and comments:
You all really hit the nail on the head in regards to why I build The Abyss the way I did. The point of the “solve meter” is to rebuild enthusiasm for finding solutions and confirm that there ARE solutions. The main two reasons I made this site were to show people that MAZE is a masterpiece of riddles not a pile of random stuff and to show Manson that there was a serious fan base for a sequel.
I have no illusions that I have solved MAZE, I am convinced that completely solving MAZE is impossible. I am not at all the final judge of a good solution, the final judge is Mr. Manson. For me to feel comfortable that I have solved a room all the items in the room must be accounted for as parts of a riddle which is relatively simple, or complex in a way that is clearly indicated in the room. When I had accounted for all the items in a room in a straight forward way I moved on – so if an item in a room relates to more than one riddle I am probably not aware of it. So Vincent is right about me being not entirely sure of some of the solutions posted by others – recently there have been more and more of these comments, I hope this will continue, it makes this more exciting for me.
The guidebook is done. There have been several great finds recently which are not going to be represented in the book otherwise I will never get the first version out there. The book is presently being reviewed by the on-demand printing company I am going through.
SP is also right that a hard copy of MAZE would be awesome.
I agree with you all that the main puzzle is weakest part of the book. Manson told me that he needed to make some sort of change when the publisher decided that there would be a contest. I don’t know if this is the reason for the weak central puzzle but that is what I am choosing to believe.
Scholastic, D&D, Dragon Magazine, Encyclopedia Brown – what a flashback. Makes me want to dig out my Rubik’s Cube and play Oregon Trail on my Apple II.
Looking forward to the next one. Promise I won’t comment on them all.
White Raven
The second in our series of Maze podcasts has been completed and is on youtube. If I post the link here then this comment will be flagged for moderation and you won’t see it for a little while; instead I will note that the podcast is entitled “MAZE by Christopher Manson [02]” and is exceedingly easy to find.
If looking that up seems like too much effort, a link will be following here shortly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JPcj32qd7U
There you are.
Really, though, you have no excuse for not having subscribed to my youtube channel already. It won’t be anything but Maze podcasts. My channel’s name is “Vincent Watkins.”
A general rule of Maze time is that you can only move forward in time by taking the right door and then you move forward one click. Wrong doors dump you back in time. There are exceptions. If you are on the path to the center you can leap forward to the return path. There are timeless rooms. Also in 25 you can take 34 and 35 and move forward one unit of time. But then exiting 35 will dump you back. The most forward room in time in 20. It is the 24th “time zone” and the 24th letter of the Greek alphabet Omega is written around the carpet ring.
I am blogging my journey through the maze. I started the first page yesterday (I had a lot of coffee) and wrote a little today. I’m sure it will be more amusing than huge revelations. If you want a laugh, come and see. Please don’t post right or wrong answers. Thanks.
http://mazebymanson.blogspot.com/2014/06/preview.html
Someone was interested in the faceless dancer / stick man, etc… They are souls. See my page 3 adn 10 for more.
Abyssians,
Changes to the site:
1. There are now only two levels of comments the original comment and replies to that comment.
2. While writing a comment the space to write expands so you can see your whole comment before posting [beta].
3. After posting a comment you can delete your comment within 5 minutes or edit it within 30 minutes.
4. Pages with more than 45 base comments are broken into separate pages (hasn’t happened yet).
White Raven
I’ve noticed the two levels thing. It’s cleaner and easier to read. The ability to delete or edit is a great change. I haven’t tried the expanding text box yet.
Forgot to mention the change to the recent comments section (excerpts), but I suppose that was pretty obvious.
Me and some of the boys have started this Wiki in order to document patterns in the Maze, for example an article on say, the crown, which deals with how many times it appears in the maze, in which rooms, and discussion on what it could mean either in relation to the room, or to the Guide, or to the maze at large. White Raven has agreed to helping our effort in the sense that we can use finds from here. We will respect Christopher Manson’s legacy by not displaying his work on the page. Hopefully this will spark new real world sales for Maze, although between eBay, Amazon, and a few other stores, I’m not sure how beneficial this will be to Manson himself as he wouldn’t be seeing any of these proceeds. Maybe it will create a demand for a reprint? Maybe in hardback? I know I would pay more for such a codex.
http://themaze.tk << The Maze Wiki.
We have made it user-registration based, so anonymous people can't edit articles or the discussion pages. Hope to see everyone there!
Abyssians,
Increasing demand brought the book out of mothballs, it is available new from the publisher via Amazon (see link at the bottom of the page). Amazon sales of the reprint (despite tons of 1 cent copies) have been increasing thanks to…well…all of us. I get two to three emails a week from people too intimidated to post ideas but who are excited about the book for the first time or all over again because of reading our discussions. So yea for all of you!
If you haven’t checked out SP’s site http://themaze.tk please do so, it looks like a great place to discuss the finer points of MAZE theory.
Thanks again for your help SP – good luck with The Maze Wiki!
White Raven
Abyssians,
Yesterday I started a project which I thought would take me away from The Abyss for three weeks or so. It turns out I will be temporary moving down to D.C. for 8 months. So you will all be hearing a lot less of me. I am taking this weekend to make some modifications along the lines suggested by SP so if you see changes and things look messed up, just give me a day or two and I will fix it. Thank you SP for your suggestions!
White Raven
always a pleasure to help, you have already made gains with your search optimization. have a good trip and hope to hear from you soon.
I sometimes wonder if the “2 steps to doom” path is important in any way. 1 => 21 => 24. But I don’t know much about 21.
Dave Gentile wrote in Room 22, “Suppose Manson “invited” Pharisees but not specificly Herod. Then Herod could have come on his own, “univited” as it were.”
Hello Gregor added, “I think Manson was more getting at the relationship between a work of art and its creator. Art in its creation is something of a compromise with the physical world. Further, our own thought processes are not entirely conscious. Our verbal mind is not entirely in control.
Whatmore, there is a notion that an interpretation brought to a work is not wrong even if it doesn’t agree with the conscious intention of the artist. I think he’s saying, in part, that Maze isn’t a puzzle in the traditional sense and sense. There are three official problems offered- how to get to the center, how to get there and back quickly, and the whole business with the riddle. The why of these things and whatever larger puzzles we may see or wish to solve, while not necessarily intended, are valid insofar as our opinions are valid.”
My two cents: The issue of the postmodern turn is important in understanding how to approach MAZE. There are hundreds of options on how to understand meaning in any particular text but here are the four basic ones: 1) This text has valid meanings that we bring to the work regardless of authorial intention. 2) The valid meaning of this text is what the author intended. 3) The text has a mix of authorial intended valid meanings and valid meanings we bring to it. 4) The text is meaningless.
For many works this is a highly debated issue in philosophy of literature circles. This particular work, however, is much easier to grapple with philosophically then, say, a novel. The classic example is a receipt. If Derrida walked into a bar and ordered a drink, he would quickly learn the limits of the postmodern turn if he attempted to not pay because the receipt, “Can mean whatever I bring to it.” No amount of cultural or personal relativity will get him out of paying the $6.32 he owes.
Puzzles work in a similar manner. The author has in mind that the clues will lead to a solution. The author constructs the clues and knows the solution. If asked regards a proposed solution that the author did not intend the answer would be, no, that’s wrong. Novels are infinitely more complex than this, an author could say, “I wasn’t thinking of that at the time,” but we can wonder, perhaps subconsciously? But in regards to puzzles a subconsciously produced solution (if that is even possible) would still be incorrect because the author said no, or the answer list in the back of the book didn’t list it, or the fact that you dug where you thought the treasure would be and came up empty handed. Thus in regards to puzzles, math, receipts, etc., the valid meaning of the text is what the author intended – this is a widely accepted modification to Derrida style literary postmodernism among postmodernist philosophers.
There is no doubt that the moon next to Saturn is “Atlas,” or that “fable” is the right choice because it is not in the text, or that the leaf, shakers, spatula and key all turn over pointing to the hidden door. The whole book is like this. One of the wonderful things about puzzles is they have an answer, and when we find it, like when solving an equation, we can usually tell that it is right.
Raven: There is no doubt…that “fable” is the right choice because it is not in the text.
Dave: Well, as you know, I certainly agree that door is the right choice, and that you have one way of knowing that. I just feel that the solution is much better if you complete the set of 3 false clues with a true clue. Just pick up that letter at the foot of the easel (both an L with an extra pen stroke and an upside down mirror image F) , combine it with fable, by replacing the F there, and ignore one pen stroke. Now you have a 4th anagram to complete the set. “story” was way to simple a clue. Nary and Late were a bit harder, but still false. The set is completed by the hardest one, the true one, and anagram of bell.
So to fit with the rest of what you said – the author ain’t telling us. And it seems we are both bringing something different to the party unless/until he does.
^ anagram of “a bell”.
And as a small re-enforcer, of course, or as a pre-hint, if you say “Fable” with stress on both syllables it is “FAY BELL” which nearly sounds like “A BELL”. Just a tiny bit of veil over the clue. Just like the one pen stoke you have to drop.
Also – while I don’t know Manson well to say the least, from the little he has told me directly, I get the sense that he personally does not like to look at MAZE as a math problem. “Mystery” is a word he has used more than once. I’m not sure he’ll be all that happy if someone does figure the whole thing out in his life time. Probably part happy part sad, I’d guess.
Personally of course, I see it more like you, a puzzle with a right answer. But it might be incorrect to attribute that attitude to him.
Is there a reason that the URL for room 2 is different from the URLs for other rooms?
Yes, this site is Frankenstein monster of modified code. I set up Room 2 as my prototype and was going to copy it to make all the others, but then I accidentally copied Room 1 instead, so Room 2 is the only one set up correctly. It is similar to when Igor gives the good doctor an Ab(by) Normal brain in Young Frankenstein, but without the song and dance number.