For saying something.
This and that.
- Image copyright 1985 by Christopher Manson
into the abyss . net
Solving Christopher Manson's MAZE and the Genre of the Immersive Puzzle
For saying something.
This and that.
- Image copyright 1985 by Christopher Manson
On the Room 34 page vewatkin wrote something which I am quoting here so it isn’t missed: “Just as Manson’s readers didn’t have the advantage of the internet to research such details, Manson didn’t either, and “jibe” may not be as arcane in his experience as it is in ours.”
Vewatkin hit it on the head. Manson used books and his personal knowledge to create the riddles, therefore the knowledge base is his personal understanding of general knowledge. Versus today where we can check our understanding against Wikipedia and Google.
This applies in various rooms in various ways but most importantly in one, as of yet undiscovered, riddle in which the cultural meme Manson is familiar with is unpopular…and unfortunately the more popular versions don’t solve the riddle.
I’m sure that’s true to an extent, but I don’t think I could live in a world where JIBE is not somehow connected to the ship. Mr. Gentile brings up an excellent point about ships being made of pine, using compasses, and performing jibe maneuvers. Since there are two paintings here, it’s entirely possible the words are doing double duty to address them both.
* NEWS FLASH*
Apparently vewatkins posted this theory on John Bailey’s site.
SP,
I agree. You and I posted on Page 34 at the exact same time, check my response to “jibe” there.
White Raven
SP wrote: “Apparently vewatkins posted this theory on John Bailey’s site.”
Yep, this is an old one. It actually appeared on a site prior to Bailey’s (though this may have been vewatkin as well).
Anything that predates Bailey predates me. There is nothing new in heaven or on earth.
With the possible exception of WiFi, zippers and nutella.
So, there is a page about the guide. Two good guesses are Hermes, E.A. Poe, and maybe Ariadne, even the Minotaur say some. So are these definitely wrong? Is the guide someone in Greek literature and or mythology? (I trust it isn’t something like Man-sun himself.)
What guesses have been crossed off is what I want to know.
Hercules would be another guess. (anagram for ‘HER CLUES”)
This post lists the possibilities, based on comments from WR.
http://www.intotheabyss.net/identity-of-the-guide/comment-page-1/#comment-2013
I’ve created a Maze soundtrack compilation. If you want it give me a shout at info at acesmedia dot com and I’ll send you the link.
It collects all the songs from Maze: The Motion Picture, as well as three bonus tracks recorded for scenes that were eventually cut from the film.
We try the patience of our small, faithful audience…
Episodes 15 and 16 have been recorded. Webmaster SP had a busy week, but the episodes will hopefully be up on the “Maze by Christopher Manson” youtube channel shortly, with appropriate descriptions and cover graphics added. In the MEANtime, if you CAN’T wait:
episode 16: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh3jI3PJgCQ
episode 15: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7NYYc3ItY0&list=UUDs1egSZHjarsK1zMRmRu2w
Up to date on comments. Good work Abyssians!
Our attempts to, in some ways, simplify Maze podcast access have led, in the short term, to a little bit of difficulty in knowing just where to find things. The latest podcast is available on my channel, but will hopefully be up on the Maze channel soon. By the time you’re reading this, who knows. My advice for curious non-subscribers is to simply google “maze by christooher manson back to school.” Google will take care of you.
In episode 12, Greg and I discover some new things about Room 1, and about ourselves.
Christopher, yeah yeah
Great news. See, I ran into my former English teacher and we talked about the book Maze. He is probably, with my help, going to put it on a list of alternative books for senior reading reports. Isn’t that awesome! I have to write a description and expand on what the goal is. I have an idea already, give them the riddles and see if they can find them. And of course, what path they will take. Usually we did the short books first, so maybe I won’t have to wait for May to find out how it goes.
SP: “Laura, I take it you don’t want to participate in the upcoming podcast?”
I was just going to say, “Thank you but no,” but I feel compelled to say a bit more.
I have watched some of the podcasts and would not find it fun. I do not appreciate comments of one of your group about this site and another of your group about the maze book.
To the one…
Manson created a HUGE variety of puzzles – and sometimes it’s just counting stuff like amphorae. But it goes without saying that needles and eyes as ones and zeros is a brilliant puzzle. And the fact that it is correct is obvious even without confirmation…the reaction of this person and some others boggles the mind. If this individual does not like the book he should get another hobby.
To the other one…
I found out about this site because the company I work for offered WR a job after reading his puzzle theory summary. He said no.
Puzzle theory is a field of research and WR’s brief summary is entirely brilliant…it is a game changer for the field. For the first time puzzle theory has a working paradigm which can define the entire field. WR wrote us an expanded summary which has become the bible for our development group.
Do I wish I was as smart as WR? Yeah. But I wish I was as beautiful as Angelina Jolie too. Without WR’s help we all would be nowhere, bickering among ourselves. Without expert moderation there would only be a sea of opinion and no Maze resurgence. WR coulda made a walkthrough and told us about all the room puzzles and who the guide is and basically ended the game. But what he did instead…THIS…is fun. I’ve never gotten a puzzle point and probably never will and I still think it’s fun. If it isn’t fun for you find something else that is.
Oh and “Second resurgence?” the John Bailey site got 80 posts, it was a blip that went nowhere. There were a couple other sites that had about as many posts over the years…is this the fourth resurgence then? On this site the moderator is a genius, Manson is involved and maybe is considering a sequel, and this site has over 2500 posts. 80…2500. This site isn’t the second resurgence, it is THE resurgence.
SP…having said all that…I have no quarrel with you. Thank you for the invite…really…it was nice to be asked. Why not ask Irene, I thought her comment on there being eights above the doors was insightful.
Laura,
That’s fair enough, it was no quarrel, just sometimes messages got missed and I thought it might have slipped past. In any case thanks for the detailed response! There are a few points you make that I would disagree with but that’s for another day. Really, we just ask everyone we can get our hands on, I believe I did ask Irene but again, this site’s format is prone to people missing posts unless they check it often.
See y’all tomorrow on the cast.
Laura,
I had no idea you were with that company – you weren’t one of the people emailing me were you? Sorry I don’t remember, it was awhile ago. It actually happened in the reverse order. I first received a request to talk about the Puzzle Theory page, but I wrote an expanded explanation instead. Then I was offered the job.
Unless you are aware of something I am not, no one has been seriously bad mouthing The Abyss. I get a little flak once in a while, which is to be expected, but people have been very supportive.
In regards to the folks who don’t care for needles and eyes, I believe they have found some peace in that regard.
This group can get a little snippy sometimes but I think we are a pretty happy family. Keep in mind that we are all nuts for Maze and so none of us is particularly normal. :)
White Raven
In regards to the John Bailey site:
The significance of the John Bailey site is not in the number of posts but their quality. The posts were long, detailed and often correct.
You are right that the site hardly compares to the traffic and interest present right now on this site as well as on TheMaze.tk, the google group, and the podcasts. But keep in mind that the John Bailey site was launched after Maze had lost steam when the book was out of print. I never saw the original site, but from what I have heard it was organized like a regular blog and got pretty good reader traffic. John Bailey helped to keep interest in the book going.
WR, it wasn’t me. I am just a paper pusher. My boss and the DV group thinks you’re the bees knees.
SP V G & WR,
Okay, okay, okay, I’m sorry. I took boys will be boys as an actual fight.
Greg, thanks for the song, did the trick. It’s my ring tone now. Expect a royalty check in the mail any day. :-)
Laura:
“WR, it wasn’t me. I am just a paper pusher. My boss and the DV group thinks you’re the bees knees.”
I dunno.. you seem pretty enthusiastic. I mean, you’re posting on this site. We’re trying to foster a positive and collaborative environment with a common goal. I may not speak for the rest of the crew here but I don’t appreciate your outburst earlier on HM. Not because I agree with his approach to the book but because the goal of this site is blindingly clear but has somehow been deviated to this beef, And now your backpedaling about holding WR in high regard. If you respect his work just say so, I surely do. Let’s keep this about Maze. WR expresses his desire to remain anonymous, indeed, many of us are abstained about this fact, but the truth remains that this website’s about Maze. I don’t think many people are interested in Raven’s outside work unless he wants to share it later in time. Either ignore HM or keep it private. Don’t nobody wanna hear that girl.
Really, we need to focus our disdain on a useful target, like Kit Williams. Man, to hell with that guy!
thems fighten werds! kit williams is another master of this pseudo-genre
Kit Williams is like that cowardly little worthless cat in Room 4. I don’t know how exactly, but that’s what he is. (I no longer utilize a cultural reference set outside of rooms in Maze.)
SP: “Either ignore HM or keep it private. Don’t nobody wanna hear that girl.”
I entirely agree, but I figured HM was a boy. :-)
haha touche! i tip my hat to you
My two cents:
I think solutions that are modern related such as 4H and Michael Jackson, while not necessary incorrect should be scrutinized more than solutions involving myth and dark literature which match the book’s tone. We know there are modern solutions like the moon Atlas and bowling, but these appear to be less frequent than Poe and tarot type solutions.
Michael Jackson is just a joke. They will deny it – but they are kidding around with that one. Some of the clues mentioned post-date Maze. But 4H I’m pretty comfortable with. It comes up both in 15 and 39 and makes real contributions to solutions in both places.
No, the Michael Jackson connections that postdate Maze were Michael Jackson referencing the book, not the other way around.
Ah, I see, time loop.
Hey everyone, we at TheMaze.tk have stepped up our recruiting efforts to find new Mazers:
* I’ve embedded the podcasts on the website (for example, podcast about room 8 is embedded on that wiki page)
* We have the Maze-dedicated Youtube channel online
* We are located on G+ as well. Anyone who +1′s MAZE will be eligible to be invited to the podcast sessions.
* We are also on Facebook. This should help with anyone who’s not on G+.
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjREgdjiM5ZRYAK7dnUFaUA
Google+:
https://plus.google.com/b/101780515948223486855/101780515948223486855/posts
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/christopher.manson.maze
Hopefully this will help us gain a few more people in our efforts!
I like the idea of asking Manson a question once (twice?) a year and see what we get. It could be pie in the sky dreaming but I’ll make a page where we post questions and then we can choose a question and see if he answers it. I think he might go for this simply because we are showing restraint and respect, but don’t get your hopes up too high. He really doesn’t like answering questions.
The Ask Manson page is now available on the sidebar above >ROOM INDEX<.
While writing the previous comments I had a thought, perhaps I should add a category called “current topics” or something for solutions that are getting real traction but that I think are wrong or incomplete. Hmm…
Podcastians,
I just watched episode 8. A nicely done, very even-handed critique. Good non-use of swear words, impressive.
To reiterate, and confirm your suspicions, very few of my solutions have been confirmed by Manson.
Because you almost asked, here it is – if memory serves me the solutions Manson has confirmed are:
> The Déjà vu rooms – We chatted about them in the context of talking about the sequel he had planned. We did not talk about the shadow over the deck but he did confirm that Déjà vu #2 is a meaningless copy.
> Needles and eyes – One of my favorites, I was complementing him (geeking out is more accurate).
> The flipping over the doors in Up & On – Another favorite, I really like spacial-conceptual puzzles.
> The NO ESCAPE poster.
> The key shaped trap.
> The Cask of Amontillado – We both read Poe when we were kids. The wine and trowel are correct but we did not talk about the junk, multiplication table, or tree.
> The net/zero in the dice room – (sorry vewatkin, you have a knack for disliking confirmed answers).
The only presently unsolved bits he has confirmed are:
>The identity of the guide riddle.
> Part of Room 31/Dead Tree.
> Room 44/The Reptile – Another favorite even though it is more linguistic than spacial.
> Part of Room 21/The Yard – This is the only room Manson offered a bit of info I did not have. Not really a solution but part of a solution.
I probably missed something but I think this list is almost entirely complete.
Generally he has no interest is answering questions, giving hints or confirming solutions. The solution confirmations listed here were a result of either me geeking out, or necessary in order to discuss the book. If I was seeking confirmation I would have brought up completely different issues. The only solution I offered seeking feedback was for Room 22/Gaudy. I knew it was wrong, I just wanted to know if I was right at all… I wasn’t.
In regards to personality, Manson and I have some similar interests but we are very different people, to put it simply, I am just a guy who is good textual interpretation – he, on the other hand, is amazing.
In regards to interpretations like Cask of Amontillado which require external knowledge, there are a few of these in Maze. The other big one that is solved is Room 26 and the Voyager 1 probe visit to Titan the moon of Saturn.
The riddle of the guide does not require external knowledge, all the clues are in the book.
The other topics we have covered are the history of how the book came about, I don’t mean influences, he didn’t share much about that, but the process of drawing and writing. We also covered interpretation methodology, especially how it goes wrong. As well as humor in Maze and red herrings.
White Raven
Cashing in Vincent’s Above and Beyond Award:
I really like the needles and eyes solution so take this a grain of salt…
The four point rooms mostly have supporting riddles and smaller riddles left. The one exception is Room 30 IF NO EVE which I think you will appreciate after you get done cursing it.
Of the three point rooms I think you will like Room 2/Frescoes, Room 3/This Way, Room 8/Tilted, and Room 34/Parlor.
Of the two point rooms I like Room 31/Dead Tree but you won’t. I think you will like Room 18/Fire, and Room 27/Statue.
Of the one point rooms I think you will like Room 16/Chamber, and Room 44/Reptile.
There’s a good reason that Room 35/Basement is at zero – its different. I like it, you probably won’t.
Goodbye Gregor and the Good Point Band -
Greg has a good point about people solving my solutions instead of solving Maze. I thought long and hard about how to put this site together and any sort of authority is a legitimate problem – even if it were Manson – he emphasized several times that he made the book 29 years ago. Never the less, everyone, especially me, would be a LOT more comfortable if it were him and not me.
In the end I decided the downsides of a solution meter were less bad than the positives were good, but it’s not utopia, its a balance of evils. On debatable points, or one’s where the opinion is against me, (unless it is part of a larger solution) I have tried calling for a vote (like I did yesterday), but people have thus far not been keen on voting.
The best way of handling the downsides is just to take my opinion lightly. Sure there’s a solution list with points at the top, don’t like it? Ignore it. Most people seem to hate the point system in a positive way – it creates a definable goal around an open ended book. But I encourage all of you to blow it off if you find it distracting. Or take the excellent suggestion of Podcast XIII, think about it as plus or minus a point.
I regret my rather flippant response to your call for votes, though it is true that I’m not that interested in voting either. The thing is, for these close clues/solutions, it doesn’t really matter to me whether they go up at the top or not–they’re not the things that are interesting to me, which are the core solutions. And we’re not filling out the solve-o-meter with them, so selling you on them doesn’t gain us a moral victory there either.
That said, there are certainly solutions I feel strongly enough about, one way or the other, that I would probably speak up if a vote were being taken. Unfortunate, the majority of those solutions are ones I dislike but that Manson has confirmed, so…
Abyssians,
I have been in contact with Hidden Mystery (known as Thail Krider on his blog) encouraging him to remove images of Maze he took from this site. He refused. He implied that he had Manson’s permission, Manson said he did not, and would not, give permission. Later the images disappeared and Thail posted the following on his blog:
[Sorry, fans. Despite the fact that White Raven plagiarized all of his photos from Manson's copyright, I was asked not to re-publish his pictures. I have removed anything from his site until I can download a free version that I was given permission to use. It is what it is. In other words, White Raven is a vehement liar who is only jealous that I solved the path first (and in only two days!). Help others find my site by posting links. Thanks]
The only part of this worth responding to is that there is no such thing as a “free version.” Thail is referring to the Open Book Systems site which hosts images of the book under contract. Earlier I suggested to Thail that I could perhaps help him get permission to use these images. Needless to say the offer has been rescinded.
White Raven
But White Raven, how can we trust any of that information when Hidden Mystery has just informed us that you are a vehement liar?
How we can even trust that you’re a vehement liar? Maybe Thail Krider never even said that!
Am I trustworthy as a liar…hmm, you got me there. :)
2 X 2 X 3 = 12
vehement liar = 12 letters
Simple. Its on his blog!
Ha! :)
WR – Why have you not blocked HM? He is annoying and, and I can’t think of an appropriate word. Really. English has failed me. Seriously. Fine. He’s annoying and an ______.
Episode 9 of the Maze podcast when up today, and I don’t think it has been mentioned here that Episode 8 went up last week as well.
Easy to find, but I’ll post a link to my channel in a separate comment.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDs1egSZHjarsK1zMRmRu2w
Finally Episode 10! I was going through Withdrawal!
The Maze is located in South America around the tropic of Capricorn. (Well, I don’t actually believe that Manson intentionally located the Maze anywhere but the land of imagination, but if it were really located somewhere that is the best hypothesis). We know it is the Sabbath Day in Maze (Sunday or Saturday depending on your argument). We know there is time in Maze and in room 33 it is Midnight to match the Raven poem. But that poem also says it is December. Now there are no clues in Maze to what month it is other than nice outdoor weather, but since the time matches the poem the hypothesis that the month does as well is better than nothing. Now we move to room 6 and note that the sun comes straight down from a high hole. For the sun to be right over head in December in must be near the tropic of Capricorn. Since the guide is native American, South America is a better guess than say Africa. There is a palm in one room which could fit. Someone might want to argue about the vegitation in 21, however, I suppose. That’s the amusement for today – back to what you were doing….
[Note: Despite David's use of "We know" in the above comment he is voicing opinion that is mostly his own. An interesting one though!]
i’m still finding the ‘time in the maze’ concept hard to grasp beyond the only room it was mentioned in (13).
that being said… weather in the maze is of interest to me.
Abyssians,
I would like to take this occasion to present to fellow Abyssian Vewatkin the Above & Beyond award for going through and correcting the text on 20+ pages of Into The Abyss after I stated that I didn’t have the time to make the corrections right now.
Thank you vewatkin!
White Raven
P.S. – Your Above & Beyond award can be redeemed by passing it though the slot in Room 39.
But you’re still going to have to go through the pages and change them anyway. ??
Already done.
Editing pages is easy – it took me maybe 15 minutes. I have a really hard time with proofreading – it would have taken me many hours.
Careful, I might start a lawsuit against you for using my people as cheap/free labour!
Abyssians,
Caught up on comments, I will check back in a week or so.
White Raven
Podcastians,
Great work on Room 30! I am impressed with the balance all of you struck between creative solutions and critical skepticism.
I’ve said this before, and it sounds like you all pretty much landed on this interpretation anyway, but just in case – In MAZE light is good, dark is bad, the entire structure of MAZE is built with this basic principle in mind but in regards to the riddles it is never this simple. Light and dark are mixed into riddles as useful elements to denote good / bad, right / wrong.
MAZE HATS! :)
White Raven
Link to podcast 6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNMQXfNZwo4
MAZECAST 07: THE STYGIAN GLOOM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znevJrEGMCM
In this episode we talk about Room 24 and the places that lead to it, in our own Stygian Gloom. Main presentation by David Gen-TEEL, with commentary from Beguiling Ben, Diabolic Beelz, Veteran Vance, and myself. I also make a huge breakthrough with a compelling Guide identity argument.
As people in this episode make huge realizations, they are mysteriously cut off from their live feed… Only one member remains by the end of this episode.
This was material that did not make it before I was lost in the Abyss – Much of which has not been previously posted here either.
White Ravens sample of this page has 24 eyes to represent room 24 I imagine. The book has 40 eyes, I think to suggest the correct path back in room 11. Also the text has the word “dozens” which is non-random looking. There are 3 dozen eyes pictured, with a remainder of 4. 3,4 = room 34. The eyes are clues for eyes! We could not possible know that without a clue to room 34!
To me the eyes are part of a (here ironic) theme that tell us we need to look Raven in the eye to escape the Trap. And maybe “blinked” in the text helps us know that we can see the eyes. Maybe they are windows to the soul?
How does the guide get away? Does he fly? And if this is the void of space should we think of “devil bird” like in room 26? Google tells me that song is about the dangers of fate.
Podcastians,
You Fools! Never talk about Room 24 in the dark! The eyes! The cartoony eyes! – sob -
White Raven
All Maze fans – I will be far less active on this site in general. White Raven explained his goal of getting more new people involved. Too that end – I’m going to be e-mailing him my thoughts, and if he confirms any of them we will be keeping them off my page and his page until they are found by a third party. I’m still going to collect other peoples suggestions on my page, as well as my own “wrong” guesses.
Hidden Mystery’s recent comment was pretty much directed to me, so I answered it. Also I may put in an encouraging word here and there, hit the like button, post something I say on a podcast if/when I do one or add an occasional Haiku, but for the most part, new stuff will be on my page only…and maybe the discussion wiki as well, if any of my non-point guesses seem worth calling attention to there.
And as a bonus – my wife may get to see me again, since I’ve been in a Maze-haze for 2 months now….
New MAZE terminology alert:
“Maze-haze” – To be in a mental state caused by being long enveloped in the act of solving or further confusing oneself as a result of wandering far into the confoundingness of the visual-literary puzzles (otherwise known as “the dark winding staircase,” “Marianbad of the damned” or “waiting line at the DMV”) found in the depths of the world’s greatest puzzle known to tortured initiates simply as “MAZE.”
“Maze-haze” love it! Been away for a while, looking forward to being in the maze-haze again.
Carl Koffman! Let’s put the thickness of your Maze-haze to the test: are you interested in participating in Maze-oriented google hangouts or podcasts? Many of us from the Abyss (and beyond) are in a perpetual group chat and do a weekly show about Maze. Our Maze-haze is so thick you can hang a coat on it, and you are welcome to join us.
Abyssians,
Podcast 0 (the prequel) is online. Watch Greg lead two victims to their doom…
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDs1egSZHjarsK1zMRmRu2w
It is worth watching just to see two newbies make the rest of us look like idiots. Think of what they could accomplish in TWO hours!
I am caught up on comments. I will check back in a week or so.
White Raven
For some reason my posts to 36 don’t appear. Thanks,
We want t-shirts with Maze!