Navigate by clicking on doors or door numbers.
…an entirely different kind of place.
The group complained of feeling “all turned around,” as well they might.
Because no one wanted to stay here very long they missed the real sign while looking through the obvious. People in their situation, confronted with a challenge, tend to accept the terms of the challenge as a given, without examining it from all sides. How many sides does that problem have? They don’t know.
We passed down a long flight of stairs, through some sort of pantry, and on into…
- Images and text copyright 1985 by Christopher Manson
used with permission. [Purchase MAZE from Amazon]
Room Type: LOOP Doors: 9 15 18 33
Solution Summary: [COLLECTION CURATED BY WHITE Raven. SEE COMMENTS FOR ADDITIONAL SOLUTION PROPOSALS.]
● The “obvious sign” in the text refers to the “THIS WAY” sign which points to door 18 no matter how you invert the image. [Independent Credit: Hello Gregor | White Raven]
● Two question and answer pairs indicate the correct door. The riddle of the sphinx emphasized by a question mark (next to the wrong door) points to the answer “man” next to door 18. [Independent Credit: Hello Gregor | vewatkin | White Raven]["Man" is understood in the context of the Riddle of the Sphinx as not to be "male" but "humankind."] The question, “What is your sign?” points to the answer “man” next to door 18. [Independent Credit: David G | White Raven] [This is emphasized by both the question mark in the sphinx picture and the "What is your sign?" banner having the same orientation.]
● The well known modern version of the riddle of sphinx is, “What goes on four legs in the morning, two legs during the day, and four legs in the evening?” In this version a day is equated to a life and thus the night which follows evening is death. The sun and moon symbol then symbolize life and death, reinforcing 18 as the correct choice. [Independent Credit: Aria | White Raven][There are several versions of the riddle in antiquity all which emphasize the sequence four, two, three and make no mention of morning, day and evening. Though the version by Athenaeus includes a second riddle, "There are two sisters: one gives birth to the other and she, in turn, gives birth to the first." The answer is day and night. It is possible that these two riddles were combined to create the modern version.]
● The STOP/POTS sign pairs with the pots indicating that they are incorrect. The tepid water in the pots points to the warm water in the radiator. “Warm” as an idiom in English denotes more correct. The sun and radiator on/next to door 18 are both warm. [Independent Credit: Hello Gregor | White Raven] Room 18 is described as a “much warmer room” this reinforces the warmer/cooler riddle. [Credit: Hello Gregor] The moon denotes darkness, the sun denotes light. Darkness/bad versus light/good is a running theme in MAZE. [Independent Credit: David Gentile | White Raven] [Warm and cold dovetail with life and death in the sphinx riddle so that "warmer," life, light, and "man" all point to door 18.]
● The typeface of the banner “WHAT IS YOUR SIGN” is written so that letters could be numbers. The word “IS” appears to be either a 15, 51, 12, or 21 depending upon how the room is flipped or reversed. If 21 and 12 are added the result is 33, if these numbers are subtracted the result is 9. 33 and 9 are the numbers of the incorrect doors. [Independent Credit: 515 | White Raven] [This solution is incomplete.] 51 – 12 & 21 = 18 the number of the correct door. [Independent Credit: Aria | White Raven] [This solution is incomplete.]
Couldn’t reply to White Raven below, so I’m doing it here:
Re: Extra Obvious Connection Between Man and Sun- The man is dancing toward the sun.
Hee!
The man IS a “son”?
This is why we have Moon-man.
We are also told by the text that we should not take the terms of the challenge (question) as (a) given.
“What is your sign?” + radiator = Q: ”What is your signator (signature)?”
A: Man + Sun = Manson.
Note that opposite Manson we have a Moon man.
For a room-level solution in most rooms we group objects near each other first. Here we should group objects across from each other first. A radiator pan is something you place on top of a radiator to increase humidity, so we should be thinking “evaporation” or given the opposite thing going on in this room “evaporation/condensation”. Sun/moon could give us “earth” but “sky is better here. Then sky and condensation together give us rain. Next grab the stop sign and “stop” plus “rain” is in MAZE equal to umbrella. How about umbrella + man next. That would be the guide. Finally “What is the guide/guide’s sign?” The only thing left in the room we have not used. The “This Way” sign indicating the correct exit.
Despite the fact that I always lost points due to my refusal to show my work in school, I’m going to try to be more explicative and give this room another shot.
This entirely different sort of place leaves people feeling turned around. This is obvious by looking around the room as all the text is backwards.
There are four visible written signs- each of them backwards. One of them stands out in that it is also upside down. The text says, “they missed the real sign while looking through the obvious.” The sign that stands out is also pointing to the correct door- 18. It is obvious. The upside down rightness is further high-lighted by the text’s digression pertaining to “examining all sides”.
This all sides thing may also be a hint that the obvious pairings in the room might be more than pairings- multiple connections may take place. It may be edifying to compare the visual image connection triangles formed in this room (3) with the sacrificial tripod in room 15.
Sphinx- the sphinx’s classic riddle is “what walks on four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs at night?” The answer is “man.” This links firmly with the top-hatted man scrawled upon the wall. The sphinx also looks backwards towards the door or the man.
Pots and pan- The pots link readily with stop. The handled pot’s handle points to 9 which is also flanked by the stop sign. Don’t go in 9. The text states, “some sort of pantry”. Our pot attempt blocked, we try the pan handle and find that it points to 18.
The pots can also link to the radiator. Both are metal filled with water. In the former case, the water is tepid. In the latter case, the water is on its way to becoming steam.
Sun- Sol is linked to obviously by the moon man who looks up into voided sign (if we’re going triangles, both the sun and the man link to the moon-man.) “What is your sign?” is a question that people ask in order to discover which constellation the sun was in when a given person was born. The question is really asking, “What is your sun sign?”
Heat- The three objects surrounding our door of choice are all either warm or hot- the sun, the radiator, and the warm blooded man (versus the very cold stone of the sphinx’s statue or the the ice cold man in the moon.) When we are close to finding something, we are “getting warmer.” The hottest object- the sun- is nailed to our goal.
Gotta go!
Hello Gregor,
Extra points for spelling it all out!
Correct stuff:
The THIS WAY sign is the obvious sign because any way you flip it, it still points to door 18.
The water in the radiator is warmer, the tepid water in the pots (no stove) is cooler.
The sun and radiator are a matching set based on heat.
Being “warm” signifies “correct” pointing to door 18.
The STOP/POTS sign is saying no to the pots (which by implication says yes to the radiator).
Possibly correct stuff:
The warmer / cooler connection with the sphinx and the man and also the sun and moon- The sphinx points to the man already but the stone versus flesh connection makes sense in context. There is another reason moon points to sun but, again, in context cool and warm makes sense.
Damn close:
There is a much more obvious connection (in this context) between the man and the sun than warmth – and no, it’s not “Manson.”
Awesome job! Bumping it up from one to three.
White Raven
Abyssians,
I added a link to the top of the page to an image which illustrates the useful connections mentioned.
White Raven
I don’t understand why “Man” is paired with two different things in the established theory.
Pair potentials A:
Riddle- Human (with hat)
Moon- Sun
Banner (what is your sign)- Sign (This Way)
Pots- Stop sign
???- Radiator
Pair Potentials B:
Riddle- Human (with hat)
Moon- Sun
Banner (what is your sign)- Stop Sign (don’t go in Nine)
Pots- Radiator
This Way is the odd one out, pointing the way.
I think I’m starting to prefer B. It maintains a cold/warm dichotomy.
The pots/STOP pairage could just be a trick. Since the STOP is to be read backwards as STOP, it doesn’t say POTS and so does not pair with POTS. The pots hold water at room temperature. The radiator heats it up. When you’ve answered a riddle, you’re on fire. Positionally, the elements reflect nicely with B, as well.
Further, the text says “they missed the real sign while looking through the obvious”. The real, unreflected, unique sign truly points the way to go.
How about:
Riddle- Human (with hat)
Moon- Sun
Banner (what is your sign (in exit))- Exit 18
Pots- Stop (Pans with SNAP)
Water with Radiator
This Way = only unpaired sign, and the real one.
Hello Gregor,
Full disclosure: My best guess is that “What is your sign?” pairs with “man” but a good argument could be made for “Stop” or “This way” especially once the other pairs are understood, and also a concept regarding the room’s hardest (non-pair related) riddle. I was just trying not to be nit-picky and say something like “You may be correct but there are three other good options…”
In the end there is really no way to know for sure on this point, they all work, but “man” strikes me as the most clever and the most like Manson’s style of riddle construction. Once the rest of the room is solved you can judge for yourself.
White Raven
I dig.
I guess what I’m missing is how “Man” pairs with “What is your sign?”
Further, “Man” pairs with “What is your sign?” what does the riddle pair with? I’m assuming there’s a mirror thing going on with each thing pairing with one other thing. Is my assumption faulty?
Yes, in this room things point to other things in pairs sometimes forming short chains and not everything need be involved. See the linked-to image near the top of the page. So really “Man” doesn’t pair with “What is your sign?” … “What is your sign?” points to “man” (or one of the other options) as the answer.
For example: Obviously moon and sun are a set with moon pointing to sun since sun is on the correct door. The question is why does moon point to sun and not the other way around?
There is a hell of a lot of flipping and reversing madness in this room but that is part of another (truly awesome) riddle.
My questions remain, and maybe they haven’t been answered by others so you can’t answer them:
1. Why does “What is your SiGN?” point to “Man”?
The only way that I can see is if that’s the elusive Manson- Dave’s Moby Dick.
2. If the objects are truly in pairs, then what does the Sphinx’s riddle point to, if “What is your sign?” is already paired with “Man”? Right now, I can only assume that my assumption of exclusive pairs is wrong or that “What is my sign?” doesn’t pair with the top-hatted man.
The directionality of the left/right pairing, that the left points to the right, came, in my mind, from Sphinx/Man. The question (sphinx) leads to the answer (man), so, thus, the other lefts lead to the other rights. The other directional indicator involves temperature. The items on the right are warmer- radiator heats water, the sun is very hot, human is a warm-blooded statue. But, really, if we’re talking pairs, only the sphinx/man are necessary.
Instead, what if it’s a path? Sphinx leads to man, leads to moon leads to sun? Alternatively, the room’s other question, “What is your sign?” leads to STOP. Neither path leads to the pots or the radiator, however.
Right now, the B pairing with the This Way sign pointing the way makes the most sense to me.
Hello Gregor,
I misunderstood your question, sorry. There is no reason to assume that the pairs are exclusive, and much evidence to the contrary.
In regards to SIGN > Man. Are you a human? Then you are the answer to the riddle of the Sphinx, “man.” But as I have said, there are other possibilities as well.
We’ve run out of room on our reply chain, but it could be that everything in the room pairs with another thing, and one of those things is always closest to Room 18. We’ve been assuming the the pots pair with the stop sign, but maybe that’s a trick; the pots, full of water, may actually pair with the radiator, which is a device that operates by circulating extremely hot water. Radiator by 18. The moon pairs with the sun. Sun by 18. The sphinx pairs with the man. Man by 18. The stop sign actually pairs with the “this way” sign. “This way” sign points to 18.
Maybe just the water pairs with the radiator?
Maybe the “this way” sign pairs with the sign behind the stop sign? Although I thought that was probably “snap” with pans, I had no use for snap really. So what is that hidden sign?
That way?
Way this?
vewatkin,
Correct on the pots pairing with the radiator! The question is why? Every pair conveys information. It’s the same with the sun / moon pair, the pots / stop pair, and the radiator / sun pair, the what’s your sign / man or stop or this way pair.
Because I’m trying out diagraing concept chains let’s try WR’s explanation and my though process.
WR:
Riddle of Sphinx => man (via Q/A) => Humankind ( via definition) => What is your sign ( via Q/A).
I’m slightly uncomfortable with last step.
Here is what I did:
Riddle of Sphinx=Man (a unified Q/A)
What is your sign => What is your exit indicator= ????
Then I mashed those two together so the Answer to What is your exit was man, as if any question would get that answer.
But after diagramming it, I have an issue with that too.
New thought:
How about just using the “questions on the left, answers on the right rule like this:
Q: (on left) riddle.
A: (on right) man
Q: (on left) what is your (exit) sign
A: (on right) 18.
It’s commonly said that the THIS WAY sign is both backwards and upside-down, but a simpler way to describe it is that the sign is flipped vertically while everything else in the room is flipped horizontally.
Odd-sign-in principle?
Radiator: “You’re getting warmer…?”
vewatkin, Half a congratulations regarding the radiator.
what do you mean half? what’s the other half?
Half a loaf is better than none.
You’re asking the right question.
the only other thing i can think of is that the sun which is also warm is on the correct door.
sp,
Way to go! Keep in mind that this does not invalidate the previously mentioned connections between sun / moon and radiator / pots. Just about everything in this room is connected meaningfully in this crazy room.
White Raven
Questions are on the left side mirrored by answers on the right side.
The sun pairs with the moon. What does the scroll ( a question) pair with? An answer. Is there an answer there? Yes, the ANSWER to the riddle of the Sphinx = Man.
A new room 3 summery is on my page.
Q: “What is your sig” + radiator = what is your signature.
A: Man + sun = Manson
We are clued in the test to not accept the terms of the challenge (question) as given(s).
I am not sure you really get “Sig”, but even if you do,
Sig + Radiator ≠ Signature.
Take the “what is your sign” and add radiator to get what is your signature.
Sig…n…a…tor/ture (unstessed they are the same).
Seems a fair combo to me.
Stop in is the middle of Christopher. This part of raven poem says “let my heart be still”
Vswatkin – you are probably right about the moon face.
Also a refinement there. The text has “because no one” that is “e noon e” an even clearer hint that ee=noon. Does that help with moon face there? Dunno
If EE = noon. And if day is opposite night. Then 33 = midnight. Ok got that sorted out. No help with man moon. That is Hanson’s evil twin for now. lol
Last observation I think. EE on left wall is noon time outside. Moon is nearby and rhymes. “No one” is in a bit of unused text and contains “noon” Maybe just another tiny clue it is midnight next door. Noon is 12 on the clock but the one with the moon out is midnight.
Pantry is clue to try pan. Also relates to storeroom where we end up if we take the right exit.
Group all turned around means group of pots and pans is all turned around so hidden sign is “snap”
Question: What is your “Sig”? Answer: manson.
Don’t accept the terms of the question exactly as given.
Uber solution. With the last remaining bits. There is only 1 pot. 2 pans. The sign behind stop says “snap” I imagine. Portmanteau of spinx and pans = sans. 21 can be found on the long paper and on the arrow upside down. 21 sans 3 pots/pans = 18
How many sides does a problem have? Well the Sun and moon together have 18 points
False clue pair. The leading paper is false lead. The reversed stop could be a go. False clue. Completing the set is the true clue of the double reversed “this way”.
David, can you explain what you mean by “Completing the set is the true clue of the double reversed “this way”.”?
I’m working on the premise that every set of false clues has an associated true clue that is harder to find. They form a set that is generally related somehow. In this case each clue depends on one sign. Stop is false go. Leading paper is false. The hardest or most complex is the double reverse arrow. That is the true one of the set
David, I understand your idea regarding the false and true clues. I am not entirely sure what you mean by “Completing the set is the true clue of the double reversed “this way”.” Are you just guessing that it is true because you think the others are false, or do you have some reason to believe it is a true clue?
The most difficult clue of the 3 is the true one. The worst choice going backwards is the simplest. Just mindlessly follow the roll of paper. Next most complex is thinking about a single reverse of stop as being go. Most complex is realizing that you need to double reverse the arrow. The form a set the easier the clue the more inferior the choise.
Also text might even push us that way in this room “missed the real signs while looking through obvious”
Okay, I got it. Thanks!
18 is the most expedient way out.
The solution to the classic riddle of the sphinx is “human”.
The top-hatted man dances in stick-figure form next to door 18. Note- he sometimes uses a cane. If the sphinx were turned around, she’d also be facing that door.
When some asks for “your sign” they are referring to your sun sign. In astrology, people also have moon signs, (and signs for the different planets), but someone who is trying to pick you up at a bar is not asking about that.
There is something up with that backwards NINE. When I first got the book, I thought it may actually be a trick and actually the door was supposed to take you to 37.
SO WHY write out “NINE” instead of using the numeral 9? 9 is just as identifiable backwards as 18 or 33–
But if you turn it upside-down, then we have problems, because “9″ becomes “6″. This is important, because “8 1″ becomes “1 8″ and “E E” becomes “3 3″ in both cases–that is, whether you reverse them in a mirror or simply turn the book upside-down.
And THAT’s important because…well, I may be overstating things by using the word “important,” but it does seem that the reason “NINE” is written out is to avoid confusion with 9/6, since the “this way” sign does entreat us to turn look at the room upside-down.
YES, agreed!
What David said!
It does look like the reversed NINE might hide a ’31′.
It’s the second secret door! Except this one does nothing but waste your time and make you a cheater.
Additionally, the backward P on the stop sign is a clear 9 (so maybe that’s an indication against 9, even beyond the fact that the stop sign is right by 9). Whether Manson wanted that connection made or wanted it not made, writing out “NINE” helps to obscure it.
Hello Gregor,
When I read your comment previously I did not notice “next to door 18.” I thought you were pointing out what others have before that the solution to the riddle of the sphinx is “man” as illustrated by the stick figure. You are correct that this riddle points to door 18 via the stick figure. One more little step, spell it out please…why the stick figure (door 18) and not the sphinx (door 9)?
White Raven
Is it as simple as the room containing pairs (sun and moon, pots and pans or pots and POTS) and his one being riddle and answer, indicating 18 is the answer?
I’d say the question is “what is your sign?” And the answer is man.
YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT! Two related different riddles solved in less than two hours. Way to go guys!
Questions > Answer
Question (emphasized by the question mark) – riddle of the sphinx. Answer “Man” > door 18.
Question “What is your sign?” Answer “Man” > door 18.
Congratulations Hello Gregor, vewatkins, & david gentile!
By the way, you see how these are sort of two riddles but also sort of all one riddle? This is why I sometimes say a range of numbers. With that in mind: This is the most riddle-overlapping room of MAZE. There three more riddles to go but one of them is a collection of four somewhat related riddles for a total of 3 to 6 riddles depending on how you look at it.
I have to say, it seems a bit incomplete as it is. For one thing, the moon on the left is plainly not just the moon, but the Man in the Moon, which is an inept decision if one intends a different door to be chosen for its relationship to “man.”
If the stick figure is associated with door 18, then we have the Man in the Moon on one said, and Man-Sun on the other side. (There you go, David.) That doesn’t, on its own, present a compelling reason to choose Room 18. I mean, sure, the Man in the Moon couldn’t actually fit the criteria of the spinx’s riddle, but in about any other context in this book, if we were sent looking for “man” and we found “Man in the Moon,” I think we’d be pretty happy.
I don’t follow the “What is your sign: man,” solution. Why is “man” the answer to that question?
The answer to the riddle of the sphinx it “man” not as in “male” but as in “humankind.” The most basic obvious answer to “What is your sign?” is “man” because it would pertain to all readers of any kind. From prehistoric caves to the image conveys via code from the Voyager 1 probe (see Room 26) the humble stick figure is the symbol of all of us.
“All turned around”
“looking through the obvious”
“without examining it from all sides”
Looking at this page in a mirror makes everything normal, except the “this way” sign which has to be looked at upside down and mirror image to read normally.
The following might be far fetched but bear with me: The square looking 33, NINE, and 18 tipped me off to believe that the words in this room had square letters and some could double as numbers. When you look at the image in a mirror, and flip it upside down (so that “THIS WAY” is readable) there are three square letter, hidden 15′s in the text. THIS WAY has 15 in the IS, the stop sign TS looks like 15, and the SI in SIGN looks like 15. We know that going to 15 would escape the loop, so it’s probably safe to say this is a legit clue.
I’m not sure what this means but…
The sign says “STOP” backwards, which is “POTS.” There are pots on the opposite side of the room.
The answer to the classic riddle of the sphinx is “man.” There is a man drawn on the right wall.
The sun and moon are also a pair.
I think the STOP/POTS thing is a bit of humor.